Well, i've gone and done it now. I thought i would be educated and joined a PRT forum to seek advice about Piper and showing. I seem to have messed up the breeders rep which i am not totally upset about since she sold me a pet quality dog for breeding and show. Supposedly, other breeders on the forum called her and complained to her about selling me a dog with a bad bite. She is pissed off at me now and called me to tell me that she didn't want her rep tarnished more by me breeding and showing her so if i was to keep her, i would only get 300.00 back from my 800.00 for Piper and Clipper (Clipper was going back to her anyway) and i could keep her as a pet only and spay her or i could get a refund for both dogs. Maybe this will piss some of you off but i had to decide weather to keep her as a pet and have another pet dog and purchase more dogs to breed (if i choose to) or get my money back on her. My mom told me to return her because of her teeth and allergies, she would most likely cost me a great deal and she would be better in a home where someone has less animals and can afford to have her treated. I cried and agonized over this and chose to return them both. Maybe it was a bad decision to let Piper go and it hurts like i just lost a child but i needed to make some money on breeding as well as having them as pets and i can't with Piper. I don't know if we made the right choice or not but i'm not sure if breeding is what i want to do now. This broke my heart and i don't think i can handle having to go thru it again. My mom says she is just not the right breeder and we learned our lesson. I think for awhile i will just enjoy the dogs i have and leave it at that.
I don't know what you intended to do. If the dog was purchased for breeding, in my breed, it would be at least 2 years before you know if they can pass the basic available tests. Until you understand the HUGE responsibility that the breeding of dogs confer...you should abstain from attempting the doing. The whole process is smelly, and extra bloody and messy, and there are usually laws to make sure you are responsible for the progeny...
I'm not sure i understand exactly what you are saying. I purchased her for breeding and show and she has a bad bite. What else was i supposed to do? I understand a fair amount about breeding since my mom has been breeding for over 30 years. What tests and what do you mean by laws? Not understanding what you mean.
Oasis...Im sorry that you have this Huge decision to face...It is a subject near and dear to all of our hearts...First, I think that you should reevaluate what your intentions are...If showing and breeding is your hearts desire..then the decision is made already...you have to have the proper quality to accomplish this..If your heart would just break losing these dogs...I say keep them...but It does add numbers to your animals if you still intend to breed and or show. I have a large number of dogs.(7 at this time) .and heck no..its not easy...bills alone the time spent with each one...and the time it takes to get them all out to do the duty outside( all mine are house dogs) is major...but for me..My life style is different then most...But I see that your young, have horses and other interests...Will more dog maintence add quality to your day...I think that you really have what it takes to breed and or show dogs...what ever breed that you choose...You have knowlege and heart and personality to accomplish that task...But, It does take a matter of fact additude to rate animals as to purpose in the home. I personally have to draw a line using usefullness as the guide. I have an extremely old, neutered Brittney...he is failing and I had to make the decision weather to keep him or ??? when our family decision was to bred and train animals. We have this dog that has no usefullness except pure pet quality...Well...we still have him..he is loaded with cancerious lumps and his time is numbered...but as long as he is not hopeless in the vets eyes...or in pain..I have decided to let him live out his life the best that he can...But, if his sittuations were to change..i would have to put him to sleep. But, i would not replace him with another pet quality dog or another breed from the 2 breds my family has chosen to love and breed. I would love to reduce the number of dogs...even by 2...But that will come in time and i dont like to make rash decisions. I know your a highly intellegent caring person..What ever your decision is please start which what your real desire is...Then go from there to accomplish that goal. I think what ever informed decision that you might make would be the best, most sound decision and no one should second guess you. Again..i feel for the fact that your in this pinch...I have faith it will all work out. Take care
Oasis...Just a note to add...You didnt do anythiing to this womans repretation..she did it her self...She obviously didnt care and just sold you dogs willy nilly and isnt the best one to evaluate that particular breed. I have had breeders lie to me too..bought dogs for breeding 3 years ago with demodex mange and one with a inguanal hernia. Both serious and quite obvious to a "breeder" to know it was not the best specimes to use in that endever. I learned the hard way..to many it is a hussle game as my hubby calls it...But, I have to be able to weed out the BS from the real information and make the best decisons with the information in front of me. I know it doesnt make the heart any less heavey to make hard and fast decisions...But, again..I have faith that you will do what is right for you in your sittuation and it will all work out...Again...Take care
Oasis I am sorry for what you are going thru! That is one of the reasons why I would never get into breeding - I would have a very difficult time not only selling the pups but if I was to be in it seriously I know I'd never be able to part with any of the others whether it was because they weren't of breeding quality or had been bred enough and deserved to just enjoy the rest of their life. I'm afraid I would end up being one of those "collectors" who just couldn't bear to part with any of them unless it was due to health issues which affected their quality of life. I'm just too much of a softy I guess.
Kitty's mom- I didn't recieve her until she was 5 months old so her bite was already bad. I had no idea i was supposed to keep all chewing things away from her so they wouldn't mess up worse. That is what the breeder said i did.
I mentioned to the breeder that the 3 year old males were off too and now she is saying that i ruined them both. I had no idea a 3 year olds teeth could still move.....hmm Any way, i don't have the room or money to keep a lot of pet dogs. We thought this would be a great way to make a little extra money and be educational for our son to see puppies born but this had to happen. Now the breeder is bashing me, which is fine i guess if it makes her look better to her breeding friends. All i can hope for is that she go to a good pet home. Thanks everyone for the support.
Well, I don't know that you had anything to do with the bite being off. Maybe in some breeds that is true. I have not heard of that. I just check the bites when I sell the pups, or evaluate them in the ones that I keep. I have never seen one change... On the other hand, in breed clubs, and in rescue situations, both the reasons that you just gave for thinking about breeding [letting kids see pups be born&making a little cash] are reasons that are STRONGLY DISCOURAGED, to put it politely The only valid reason that one may have for breeding is for the betterment of a breed. Dog pounds are stuffed full of dogs bred for all the other reasons. In LA County alone, we kill 40 thousand dogs and cats each year in the humane societies. I suggest that you instead take the kids to watch unwanted young and healthy dogs put to sleep in the back room at the shelter, it is the ugly flip side of watching pups be born...watching pups that have not gone to properly screened homes, or just those bred for the wrong reasons, meet their untimely deaths. Even properly screened homes, to my shock, often buckle and rehome the pup they buy within the 1st year. Generally, it is not a money making thing. If you operate ethically, you are lucky to break even. I am happy when the dogs pay for themselves. If you go into it for the betterment of the breed, you need to learn all the flaws that a dog can have in that breed, and breed against them. The bite can be a severe enough flaw that you do not want it reproduced, same as epilepsy, dislocating patellas, and a slew of other faults. You maybe have learned the hard way that brood stock is not easy to acquire. I would say not to get in a blame game with anyone. I got a bitch, when I was very young, that passed both a bad bite and a patella problem to it's pups. I learned to look for these flaws and any others, the harder way...by facing people like you, that bought a dog from me with a disorder that required in one case surgery, at my expense, and in the case of the bite, a cosmetic defect discount at time of purchase, the bitch was immediately retired and sold as a pet. Had I examined her properly, she would not have been bred in the 1st place. Sounds like you are doing better than me in that at least you did not go and produce the defect, yourself.
I don't see anything wrong with my reasons to breed. Too many breeders breed to make the perfect puppy which i believe is not possible. Shelter dogs are from accidental breedings and lost or abondoned dogs. A breeder needs to make sure the pups go to good homes and may return to them if not wanted any longer. I didn't want to be a major breeder but a few litters so that people could enjoy having what i felt was a great breed of dog. I am not after making a ton of money from breeding. I know first hand from seeing my mom breed that it doesn't make a lot. My goal was to have puppies to sell to people that wanted a nice dog for pet or show or whatever. That's fine if you don't feel i am capable of breeding or doing anything for the right reasons, all i know is most breeders are anal and think they have the perfect dogs. Never the case becuse someone is always better. I made the mistake of thinking this was a nice thing to do. I will not make the same mistake again.
Oaisis...I stand by my previous coments..I think that you can do a good job raising the breed that you love so much and do it for many reasons. I can tell that you have the betterment of the breed in mind..other wise you would not even care about the bite problem. I have children and I love to share the experence with them..although they have not seen the actual birth live..they have seen it zillions of times on Animal planet. If your Mom bred dogs you know first hand that breeding insnt all puppy breath and snuggling...It is hard dirty work and can be a financial burden if things go wrong. i dont think that you will go in to this with reckless abandon...I think that you have been thinking about this and have your prorities in order. I wish you luck in what ever you decide to do. I think your swell...And I dont for a second think your doing any thing for the wrong reasons...For all it is worth...im with you on this one...
Ok, not only do i loose 2 dogs in one day but i loose my beautiful Koi (have no idea why) and today i go to seek comfort in my horse and she decides to be a butt and kicks me! Now i have an elbow twice the size of normal and a lovely red and purple shoulder, no koi and lost my princess Piper. Just my luck. At least the weekend is almost over.....lol One thing good though, i have gotten a couple encouraging e-mails from some of the breeders on that PRT forum. It just goes to show that there are some good breeders out there.
Oasis...this thread reminds me of a fish lure...and it reminds me of my cat's litter box, I cannot say which comparison wins the tussel. It will be interesting to see what you do in the future with dogs...
I agree with Kitty regarding reasons to breed. While I am not a member of a rescue organization, I have spent,and will continue to spend, much time and emotion finding homes or trying to find homes for dogs who are unwanted and already alive. It feels frustrating like banging my head against a wall sometimes when I have tried and tried and then the time comes that one must be PTS, yet at the same time people are creating MORE--- more pet quality, no better than the one that had to be PTS because nobody wanted her. Find a home for one and 13 more are born... sometimes it seems pointless to try.
However, you have had a tough week and I sure hope things start to look up for you! It seems like bad things will come at a person bang, bang, bang-- one right after another. Whew! But then you can expect for things to get better, time for the upward swing. Here's wishing you a happy rest of the week.
SBP, what you just said...In meetings held by LA city council a few years ago, to hear both people who represented dog/cat fanciers and animal control employees, regarding some way to control the dangerous packs of loose dogs and overflowing kennels of the area's humanes...the animal control people likened what you just described to a giant conveyer belt. Animal after animal after animal that was to be killed at their hands. Loading the needle over and over and over, not exactly what they signed on for. Most of them were good hearted people and murdering pups and kittens on a daily basis was not fun for them. If you multiply all the mom's and dad's who "can't see why it would hurt" showing mork and mindy, their kids, the miracle of birth, and then giving away or selling the results of that foolish experiment[better left for zoo exibits]...times the population of an area the size of LA...I did say not 4, not 40 , not 4,000, I said 40 THOUSAND animals to be killed EACH year...The result of the several meetings was that in LA county it now costs $100.00 a year to keep each unaltered dog licensed, with increasing pressure to catch people not paying into the system. The entire area now pays the price annually for the ignorance of the problem pet owners. Really, the only way to stop it is by educating small children in school. Teaching them to tell their parents to spay and nueter the pets and not to let them have babies, because there is a problem, and it is not right.
If you want to better your breed, it seems you have to have a less emotional attachment to the individual dog and more of a drive to come as close to perfection as you can. That's got to be a hard thing to do, that's why I never even considered breeding. I'd have four dozen dogs. Maybe if you or anyone else is interested inbirthing and raising a litter, volunteer to foster a pregnant bitch and find homes for the pups. That way you get the best of both worlds.
Here is one of my favorite stories to tell puppy buyer when considering breeding. Breeding is not wrong. Any action ill considered may have repercussions. It is good to go about life thoughtfully...
After I was discharged from the Navy, Jim and I moved back to Detroit to use our GI bill benefits to get some schooling. Jim was going for a degree in Electronics and I, after much debating, decided to get mine in Computer Science. One of the classes that was a requirement was Speech. Like many people, I had no fondness for getting up in front of people for any reason, let alone to be the center of attention as I stuttered my way through some unfamiliar subject. But I couldn't get out of the requirement, and so I found myself in my last semester before graduation with Speech as one of my classes.
On the first day of class our professor explained to us that he was going to leave the subject manner of our talks up to us, but he was going to provide the motivation of the speech. We would be responsible for six speeches, each with a different motivation. For instance our first speech's purpose was to inform. He advised us to pick subjects that we were interested in and knowledgeable about. I decided to center my six speeches around animals, especially dogs.
For my first speech to inform, I talked about the equestrian art of dressage. For my speech to demonstrate, I brought my German Shepherd, Bodger, to class and demonstrated obedience commands. Finally the semester was almost over and I had but one more speech to give. This speech was to take the place of a written final exam and was to count for fifty per cent of our grade. The speeches motivation was to persuade.
After agonizing over a subject matter, and keeping with my animal theme, I decided on the topic of spaying and neutering pets. My goal was to try to persuade my classmates to neuter their pets. So I started researching the topic. There was plenty of material, articles that told of the millions of dogs and cats that were euthanized every year, of supposedly beloved pets that were turned in to various animal control facilities for the lamest of reasons, or worse, dropped off far from home, bewildered and scared. Death was usually a blessing.
The final speech was looming closer, but I felt well prepared. My notes were full of facts and statistics that I felt sure would motivate even the most naive of pet owners to succumb to my plea.
A couple of days before our speeches were due, I had the bright idea of going to the local branch of the Humane Society and borrowing a puppy to use as a sort of a visual aid. I called the Humane Society and explained what I wanted. They were very happy to accommodate me. I made arrangements to pick up a puppy the day before my speech.
The day before my speech, I went to pick up the puppy. I was feeling very confident. I could quote all the statistics and numbers without ever looking at my notes. The puppy, I felt, would add the final emotional touch. When I arrived at the Humane Society I was met by a young guy named Ron. He explained that he was the public relations person for the Humane Society.
He was very excited about my speech and asked if I would like a tour of the facilities before I picked up the puppy. I enthusiastically agreed.
We started out in the reception area, which was the general public's initial encounter with the Humane Society. The lobby was full, mostly with people dropping off various animals that they no longer wanted Ron explained to me that this branch of the Humane Society took in about fifty animals a day and adopted out twenty.
As we stood there I heard snatches of conversation: "I can't keep him, he digs holes in my garden." "They such cute puppies, I know you will have no trouble finding homes for them." "She is wild, I can't control her." I heard one of Humane Society's volunteer explain to the lady with the litter of puppies that the Society was filled with puppies and that these puppies, being black, would immediately be put to sleep. Black puppies, she explained, had little chance of being adopted. The woman who brought the puppies in just shrugged, "I can't help it," she whined. "They are getting too big. I don't have room for them."
We left the reception area. Ron led me into the staging area where all the incoming animals were evaluated for adoptability. Over half never even made it to the adoption center. There were just too many. Not only were people bringing in their own animals, but strays were also dropped off. By law the Humane Society had to hold a stray for three days. If the animal was not claimed by then, it was euthanized, since there was no background information on the animal. There were already too many animals that had a known history eagerly provided by their soon to be ex-owners. As we went through the different areas, I felt more and more depressed. No amount of statistics, could take the place of seeing the reality of what this throwaway attitude did to the living, breathing animal. It was over overwhelming.
Finally Ron stopped in front of a closed door. "That's it," he said, "except for this." I read the sign on the door. "Euthanization Area." "Do you want to see one?" he asked.
Before I could decline, he interjected, "You really should. You can't tell the whole story unless you experience the end." I reluctantly agreed.
"Good." He said " I already cleared it and Peggy is expecting you." He knocked firmly on the door. It was opened immediately by a middle aged woman in a white lab coat. "Here's the girl I was telling you about," Ron explained. Peggy looked me over. "Well I'll leave you here with Peggy and meet you in the reception area in about fifteen minutes. I'll have the puppy ready." With that Ron departed, leaving me standing in front of the stern-looking Peggy.
Peggy motioned me in. As I walked into the room, I gave an audible gasp. The room was small and spartan. There were a couple of cages on the wall and a cabinet with syringes and vials of a clear liquid. In the middle of the room was an examining table with a rubber mat on top. There were two doors other than the one I had entered. Both were closed. One said to incinerator room, and the other had no sign, but I could hear various animals noises coming from behind the closed door. In the back of the room, near the door that was marked incinerator were the objects that caused my distress: two wheelbarrows, filled with the bodies of dead kittens and puppies. I stared in horror. Nothing had prepared me for this. I felt my legs grow weak and my breathing become rapid and shallow. I wanted to run from that room, screaming.
Peggy seemed not to notice my state of shock. She started talking about the euthanization process, but I wasn't hearing her. I could not tear my gaze away from the wheelbarrows and those dozens of pathetic little bodies. Finally, Peggy seemed to notice that I was not paying attention to her. "Are you listening?" she asked irritably. "I'm only going to go through this once." I tore my gaze from the back of the room and looked at her. I opened my mouth to say something, but nothing would come out, so I nodded.
She told me that behind the unmarked door were the animals that were scheduled for euthanasia that day. She picked up a chart that was hanging from the wall. "One fifty three is next," she said as she looked at the chart. "I'll go get him." She laid down the chart on the examining table and started for the unmarked door. Before she got to the door she stopped and turned around. "You aren't going to get hysterical, are you?" she asked, "Because that will only upset the animals." I shook my head. I had not said a word since I walked into that room. I still felt unsure if I would be able to without breaking down into tears.
As Peggy opened the unmarked door I peered into the room beyond. It was a small room, but the walls were lined and stacked with cages. It looked like they were all occupied. Peggy opened the door of one of the lower cages and removed the occupant. From what I could see it looked like a medium-sized dog. She attached a leash and ushered the dog into the room in which I stood.
As Peggy brought the dog into the room I could see that the dog was no more than a puppy, maybe five or six months old. The pup looked to be a cross between a Lab and a German shepherd. He was mostly black, with a small amount of tan above his eyes and on his feet. He was very excited and bouncing up and down, trying to sniff everything in this new environment. Peggy lifted the pup onto the table. She had a card in her hand, which she laid on the table next to me. I read the card. It said that number one fifty three was a mixed Shepherd, six months old. He was surrendered two days ago by a family. Reason of surrender was given as "jumps on children." At the bottom was a note that said "Name: Sam."
Peggy was quick and efficient, from lots of practice, I guessed. She laid one fifty three down on his side and tied a rubber tourniquet around his front leg. She turned to fill the syringe from the vial of clear liquid. All this time I was standing at the head of the table. I could see the moment that one fifty three went from a curious puppy to a terrified puppy. He did not like being held down and he started to struggle.
It was then that I finally found my voice. I bent over the struggling puppy and whispered "Sam. Your name is Sam." At the sound of his name Sam quit struggling. He wagged his tail tentatively and his soft pink tongue darted out and licked my hand. And that is how he spent his last moment. I watched his eyes fade from hopefulness to nothingness. It was over very quickly. I had never even seen Peggy give the lethal shot. The tears could not be contained any longer. I kept my head down so as not to embarrass myself in front of the stoic Peggy. My tears fell onto the still body on the table.
"Now you know," Peggy said softly. Then she turned away. "Ron will be waiting for you."
I left the room. Although it seemed like it had been hours, only fifteen minutes had gone by since Ron had left me at the door. I made my way back to the reception area. True to his word, Ron had the puppy all ready to go.
After giving me some instructions about what to feed the puppy, he handed the carrying cage over to me and wished me good luck on my speech.
That night I went home and spent many hours playing with the orphan puppy. I went to bed that night but I could not sleep. After a while I got up and looked at my speech notes with their numbers and statistics. Without a second thought, I tore them up and threw them away. I went back to bed. Sometime during the night I finally fell asleep.
The next morning I arrived at my Speech class with Puppy Doe. When my turn came to give my speech. I walked up to the front the class with the puppy in my arms. I took a deep breath, and I told the class about the life and death of Sam. When I finished my speech I became aware that I was crying. I apologized to the class and took my seat. After class the teacher handed out a critique with our grades. I got an "A." His comments said "Very moving and persuasive."
Two days later, on the last day of class, one of my classmates came up to me. She was an older lady that I had never spoken to in class. She stopped me on our way out of the class room. "I want you to know that I adopted the puppy you brought to class," she said. "His name is Sam."