Hello Everyone!

Scout1 · 7:44 PM, 03/23/07

RE: Hello Everyone!

Heffanator · Post-a-Holic - Give this person a rabies shot!

I am so lost in all of this. ha

But, I wish ya bthe best of luck with Chi-Ching and your new baby. :)

KatzPomDogz · You have been awarded the Posting Star of Honor!

Thanks scout. I am pretty sure it is done. His molars all align nicely and so our only other issue is trying to get his lower jaw a little stronger. He is eating dry food and seems overall fine mouth wise. Eyes are next. Hopefully we will get him in sometime in April....

Thanks Heff!!

pyrmom · 4:53 AM, 03/24/07

I am happy thta he replied to you and that he is going to talk to the vet. Hopefully, if these ARE genetic issues, she can convience him not to breed them until they are tested to find out which one or perhaps both, have the genetic defcts that are being passed down. I'm hopeful that confirmation from the vet will put any questions to rest that either of you might have over his breeding these dogs.

Hopefully the opthamologist will find nothing wrong and that Cha-Ching is merely being a stubborn child..with convienant vision loss when he deosn't WANT to see you (sort of like the convieant hearing loss both human and fur kids can evidence often!).

Sorry your daughter seems to have caught the bug that's going around and hope that you don't get it from her. Vomiting, HARD vomiting is a very bad thing for high risk pregnancies.

Kittys Mom · ~Best In Show~ Senior Board Member!

What's exactly wrong with his eyes?

pyrmom · 3:53 PM, 03/30/07

Any update?

KatzPomDogz · You have been awarded the Posting Star of Honor!

Well, I called my vet and she said that of course she cannot say about his eyes or hips as they are not diagnosed yet, but she said that she cannot 100% say that his jaw/teeth is a genetic deformality based on breeding without seeing his parents and past lines. She did say that it is not something we did or could have prevented. She told me when we were there(getting his teeth pulled) that she was sure it was from bad breeding, but my husband thinks that she is now trying to make sure that she is covered so she doesn't get in trouble.
I recieved only one response from Bob asking for the vets number, after I talked to her, I sent him the info about what she said and her number. I have not heard back.

So, basically, I am back where I started. He said that the mom is now retired and the dad is still breeding.
We will just keep taking care of him like we have been but can definitely chalk this one up to a lesson learned. I was hoping to have heard back from him, but at the same time, not shocked.

Kittys Mom · ~Best In Show~ Senior Board Member!

It looks like an undershot jaw in the photo you posted.
Were you just unlucky enough not to check that when you 1st bought the dog? Something that severe should have been evident at a young age with his baby teeth.
I had a **** almost 25 years ago that had that problem, and I did not check her teeth when I got her, before I bred her. She passed it to one of the pups. Luckily, the buyer noticed it when I jokingly told them to check the pups' teeth like you do a horse before buying [because the pups were too similiar looking to tell apart]. I was embarrassed by the incident, and of course, retired the **** immediately. I learned to check the teeth along with umbilicals and twenty other things on pups before sale.
I can see how it could be missed by an inexperienced breeder, or buyer, from that 1st hand experience. I can also see how one dog after another can be purchased with big expectations, and they don't pan out by age two.
There are 70 different genetic and other afflictions that my breed can have. Selective breeding only takes care of some of them.
Elbow and hip problems are caused 75% of the time by diet and enviornment and yet genetics is what the vet usually blames [it keeps the owner blameless]. The breeder is the only loser in the case of a dog developing defects being blamed on heredity, so it keeps the vet on good terms with the buyer, although it is not necessarily an accurate diagnosis.
Defective dogs should definately never be bred, but I send buyers away with an entire list and a lecture on scenarios that will cause skeletal/joint problems, hoping to help them avoid them.
Cheri

KatzPomDogz · You have been awarded the Posting Star of Honor!

Thanks Kitty. Actually he had a complete physical immediately after we got him. His teeth were fine, it was something that developed over time. At first the vet thought it might even at as he grew, and thought he was just going through a funky growth spurt but it never grew right.

Like I said before, my biggest issue with him was that I wanted the parents not to be bred anymore. I guess that I got half of what I wanted.....he said the mom is retired but the dad is still breeding.

I still have heard nothing back from him.

Kittys Mom · ~Best In Show~ Senior Board Member!

If they knew what they were doing, it would not be your place in life to shut them down.
Bad pups happen.
A 10% chance on the certified litters, means that a pup, every litter, among the best of litters....will be screwed up.
I guess from what people are saying, you did not select from the highest percent of better breeders, but it is none of my biz, and I must assume from talking to you over the years, that you learn from your bad experiences.
In areas of the country where certification is not as common, the incidence of dogs with problems is very high.
CA has ruthless puppy lemon laws, causing sloppy breeders to blink before they dive into accidents.
Love you,
Cheri.

KatzPomDogz · You have been awarded the Posting Star of Honor!

Yep. I didn't listen. I screwed up which is why I don't care about any money recourse. I made the decision to choose him. I will live with it. I love my dog, I just wish he didn't have to go through this. But he will live and be fine. It will be a long time before I get any other animals but when I do, there will be A LOT more thought put into where it comes from but I am not even thinking about that right now. Right now, I have more important things to do.

Thanks.

Kittys Mom · ~Best In Show~ Senior Board Member!

Makes me wonder in retropect about that pup that I sold all those years ago. The buyer and I were told it was a cosmetic defect, so they bought the dog will a discount. I hope theirs did not get so bad like that with the permanent teeth coming in. That is just terrible, poor dog.
Have a nice Easter,
Talk soon,
Cheri.

kydorkha · 7:23 PM, 04/12/07

Hey all -

I'm new to this forum and I signed up specifically to respond to this thread.

I "know" Summer from another forum - a chow forum. While she may have done things some of you obviously disagree with in the past, I have seen no signs of her not taking her ownership of Chi-Ching seriously. She has just spend a considerable amount of money to have his health issues addressed.

I am someone very dedicated to the chow breed. I show mine in obedience and agility and have had chows for 15+ years. I am not a breeder as of yet. I do have a young girl (just turned two) who is currently being health-tested and there is a possibility I may breed at some point. Khana has two titles (RN and RA) at this point and is registered as a Delta Society Pet Partner. She is also pointed in AKC and CKC conformation. I just wanted to give a little background so that people don't think I'm some fly-by-night person.

I am adamantly against the willy-nilly breeding of any dogs, and in particular the chows (a breed I love). Unfortunately, the breeder that Summer purchased Chi-Ching from is (IMO) no more than a glorified puppy miller. He breeds a large number of litters, does not do health certifications, and is no longer allowed to register with AKC and so has gone to UABR (United All Breed Registry, very typically used by puppy mills and backyard breeders who are unable to register with more reputable registries). He also breeds highly for colors that he knows will sell and it appears that this is done to the point of choosing color over health or temperament. Many (most) of his dogs live in a huge kennel in runs. I personally do not consider him a quality breeder in ANY way and - again, in my opinion - consider him to be a huge problem when it comes to the chow breed.

One thing he does seem to be good at is BS'ing people. He'll say all the right things but when you look at the reality of it, the facts are all there. Yes, he does produce some pups that apparently don't have obvious health problems. But without the health certifications he doesn't truly know WHAT he's breeding.

As far as Chi-Ching and Summer go .. Summer posted throughout Chi-Ching's life on the chow forum. She mentioned the health problems to us and has posted the before and after photos as well as discussing the lack of response from the breeder. There is nothing in what she's said here that sounds any different from what she's been saying all along. Given the lack of respectability of this particular breeder, I DO believe her when she says that he emailed her as long as things were all happy but has failed to respond when she contacted him regarding the health problems.

While you may not like Summer, please don't try to discredit her in regards to this breeder. She acknowledges that she made a mistake buying from him. She also loves Chi-Ching and has shown no signs of wanting to re-home him. It's truly unfortunate that Chi-Ching has had to go through these health problems at such a young age. As many of you know, it's heartbreaking to have any of our beloved furkids get sick and especially so when it's a genetic problem that may have easily be avoided by testing the breeding stock.

If you're in a market for a chow, PLEASE avoid anyone who does not do health certifications on their dogs! Chows are #1 on the OFA site for elbow dysplasia (47%) and are high on hip dysplasia too. Entropion is common as are other eye problems. GOOD breeders are conscientiously working to eradicate those types of problems but it is very difficult to do when breeders like RHR chows are out there popping out puppies for profit as fast as they can.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Kittys Mom · ~Best In Show~ Senior Board Member!

That was a very telling defense.
Thank you for speaking up for Katz.
I know what you mean about folks that breed that way. I have seen some that breed for profit skirt the defects on some dogs.
Color is a nasty thing to breed pups for. It is a valid enough issue in regards to breed standards, only if they are not adverse to the dog's soundness in and of themselves.
I breed for soundness, with an eye towards color, because it gets me a deluge of buyers to pick the best 5 from 200 [yes, I am a control freak when it comes to my puppies].
California has strong lemon laws for puppies that aid the buyer and seller to have a healthy relationship.
As you say, kudos to Katz for standing by that dog. That was rather extreme veterinary work, and considering what vets cost around here, I am not sure I would have spent the money she did on a defective dog.
Chi-Ching is a very lucky boy to have Katz as his mommy.
Love,
Cheri.

StormyWinter · Moderator

Really the only thing I have to say about it all is this....

This one time I hope Katz keeps her word. But i'm not holding my breath until she has her baby. That will be the real test. I honestly wish she would prove us all wrong on this one Ching is a great dog.