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Originally posted by: Ansy
"I noticed in another post of yours that you called the current school system a 'diploma mill'.  I have to say that I couldn't agree more.  I had never heard it referred to like that, but thats actually a very good way of putting it. Now on to my real question.  I know you are involved with the school systems and am hoping that your insight will make me better understand why some things have happened in recent years because I have a REAL problem with them. First, my favorite holiday is Halloween.  The celebration of Halloween has been taken out of our schools here in Tennessee and has been replaced with 'Fall Festivals".  It use to be that the Fall Festival was something we did totally separate of Halloween activities.  Now it seems they have combined the two....yet there is no 'Halloween' in the Fall Festival.  Now, I know not everyone in this country likes Halloween and many don't even celebrate it.......and I don't expect every child to be forced to celebrate halloween in schools, BUT the reason given for it was because of its 'religious' meaning (pagans, witchcraft, etc).  Now, I don't see children coloring pumpkins, ghosts and witches as promoting witchcraft.  Am I the only one that feels that way?  Why can't we still just call it Halloween in schools?  I can understand not having 'masked' parties, but a Halloween Party....what is so wrong with that? I also have issues with how Christmas is held.  I don't think that every child in the American School system should be privy only to the customary tradition of the American Christmas, so why can't we celebrate all of them?  Or at least the most popular?  Instead of celebrating Christmas, Kwanzaa, and the others ( sorry, don't know the names of how the others celebrate Christmas), they have removed ALL christmas celebrations from our schools.  Instead of Christmas break we have Winter Break.  I can deal with that......but no christmas party for the children?????  No Santa's to color?  No reindeer?  Why is it so hard to have these things and also have things from other Christmas beliefs as well? Will Thanksgiving soon be deleted from our schools as well?  Because it originated with the Pilgrims and the Indians who, at the time, lived in a country based on religion?  Easter is already a no-no, because it involves Christ.  The 4th of July doesn't even happen during the school year, nor does New Years, Memorial Day or Labor Day.  Where is the celebration for our children?  Where is the fun and joy of the holidays?  When I was in school we celebrated all of the holidays....without question.....and had FUN.  No one ever complained.  Now, I realize our country has become much more diverse since I was in school.....which is why I think it's good go incorporate other types of holiday's into schools as well.  I love it when my children have Cinco De Mayo parties at school.  My son always comes home with a pinata that he made and all of these colorful festives.  I just feel that everything is getting so anti-American in our schools when it should be getting pro-American, meaning that since America is now based on so many religions and nationalities......we teach about them all in schools instead of ripping the schools apart and depriving the children of celebratory events involving their heritage.  I can't imagine any other country giving up their heritage just to please others who have entered their country.  What I could see is other countries integrating the views, beliefs, and celebrations of other countries, but never giving up their own.  Why did we allow this? It's frustrating to know that my views have went from those of the majority to those in the minority in the last 20 years.  I'm not asking this to offend you, I'm asking because your insight may be able to help me understand things better since you work in the system.  As I said, i'm not against my children learning about the celebrations and festives of other countries, in fact, I encourage it......but I just don't understand why we had to give up our own in the process. As a family who is really big on holidays, this just bothers me a great deal.  Yes, we can celebrate the holidays at our home......and we do.......but why has it been removed from our schools?  I have some say that "if you can't celebrate them all then don't celebrate any" and thats pretty much what has happened here.........but to me.....that just takes the fun out of school.  Having those parties always gave me something to look forward to and it allowed me to interact with other children in a way I didn't get to do on a normal school day. The Pledge of Allegience is another one that gets under my skin,.....but I wont even go there...lol  I could write a book on that one!  Thanks in advance for your insight on this.  I'm really just looking for some answers......and I don't expect to get the answers I 'want' to hear, but coming from you I know they'll be the answers I 'need' to hear."

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Ansy:

I teach at the collegiate level.

But as a Leo you know I am more than flattered at your asking my opinion. :)

Regarding the public school system. The best way to alleviate this is to enroll your children in private schools.  The education is nine times out of ten much better.  The issue would be the religious influence. I am a product of private schools.  My mom sent me because she felt as a 12% I would be treated poorly in public school.  I went to Episcopalian private schools and my mom is Presbyterian.  Go figure.  I didn't have that many issues.  The private school took us to the library every Wednesday and I fell in love with the library.  Nowadays, children at the library come to play games on the computer : THAT IS IT!

The public school system is in disaray. There are many reasons.  I think (and this is my opinion):

#1:  Discipline was taking out of the school system. Meaning corporal punishment. Teachers have no authority and everyone knows it.  When I say corporal I know many people think I mean spanking.  Sorry but time out and sending children home w/suspensions is a poor way to deal with discipline problems in my opinion.  Some kids want to be sent home like some people want to stay in jail. Believe me it happens.  I have a friend who is an assistant principal, another close friend is a special education teacher and on and on...the theme is the same: these kids don't CARE about ANYTHING except for computer games, and downloading music.  They honestly think the world revolves around these two things.  Some children are very disrespectful and many of them due to poverty are ANGRY!

#2  You don't have to want to be a teacher to teach.  Teaching is a catch all for some.  You can have a degree in pscyhology and teach History because school systems are so desperate.  This I don't like.  I think like library science (my field) if you want to be hired for a job that states : LIBRARIAN you have to have a master's degree in library science.  If you want to be a teacher you should HAVE to have an education degree of some sort:  Math Education, English Education. You should have had to go to some college and graduated from their education program.  You can work in a library as a clerk, paige etc. but  you probably won't be able to get a job as a LIBRARIAN. The American Library Association has it set up this way.  This should be for teachers (sort of like a union).  In some schools the PE teacher is teaching English and on and on.

#3  Historically, desegregation of schools has been a tremendous burden. The issue wasn't about separation it was equality. Black schools were given tattered books, yada yada as opposed to "white schools" which brought about zoning issues.  Zoning problems is a BIG reason schools are in disaray. I won't go there mainly because some people I don't think can discuss race issues without bringing in outrageous generalities so.. I will just say desegregation/zoning is a big problem.

#4  I don't think religion has a place in school unless you are going to practice everything. Sure say a prayer, are we going to translate the prayer in Arab, Sanskrit, Swahili, SPanish, Portoguese, French, Italian?  Probably not.

Sorry Ansy but not everyone celebrates Christmas.  And is school the right place for a celebration or is home?  There are many factors for one Christmas is expensive. Suppose everyone in the class is giving presents except for one child who A) family is a Jehovah's Witness or B) can't afford to give gifts.  It is a reality.  Schools are filled to capacity with children from different religions.  It would be easier if they all could be celebrated but they can't.  Do you think Christians want their children to celebrate the Macabees victory (you know the Jewish holiday) :).  If you want your children to experience something..experience it at home.  Parents want schools to be everything all the time. They can't.  The funding isn't there and neither is the parental support.

Public schools are at the BOTTOM of the totem pole in terms of priority for our government. Sure during election time you hear a bunch of lip service but you have a better chance of getting a law passed about gambling than teachers getting a raise.

There are thousands of reasons schools are failing.  Celebrating holidays and having fun is not on the list of priorities for schools these days.  Students are graduating without being able to read, speak English, etc.  Many students do not have a skill.  You would be surprised at the number of students that cannot type, have poor interviewing skills, have poor writing skills....it gets pathetic.  Holiday celebration and the like in my opinion should not be a priority.

There are too many fanatics making it bad for everyone.  The guy in Alabama wants to put the ten commandments in front of the courthouse. 

The problem with Americans in my opinion:  too much thought is spent on how to get America back and why this country is being overrun with illegals and the like.  Our country was built on the backs of illegals, slaves, migrant workers, steel workers, railroad workers...every ethnicity has been dogged out.  Let's move on. Stop dreaming of the America of yesteryear. It is no more and cannot be rekindled. That might not be such a bad thing. 

Sure I get somewhat aggravated when I go to Walmart and no one can help me because they don't speak English but you know what..I am glad they have a job. It is better than some of the BORN AND RAISED Americans that won't get a J-O-B and my tax money supports them and their fifty children! Now that ticks me off.  I like to see the people living 50 in one home. Hey, at least they stick together and are trying. And everyone of those 50 people has a JOB!  I like that. 

I am single with no kids and I am taxed to death. I see people every day with four and five kids living better than I am with less money because they get so many government subsidies. A lady in the check out line, has four small children and pregnant again. She pulling out the WIC. I mean..STOP HAVING BABIES ALREADY.  The breeders (people who have children) keep having them and cannot afford to. IF YOU CAN'T FEED IT DON'T BREED IT is my mantra.

The people not speaking English is the LEAST of my worries.  At least they work!

Your thoughts?

I like the idea of teaching the kids about holidays of various religions.  Comparative religion is interesting.  However, can you imagine the reaction of Christian parents if schools started making their kids celebrate Ramadan?  Can you imagine the reaction of Christian parents when their kids have to celebrate Winter Solstice, and what's more, are told that Winter Solstice is the reason we give gifts at Christmas?  The celebration of Christmas didn't originally include gift giving, but the early Christian leaders couldn't get people to stop celebrating Winter Solstice because all of that gift giving was fun.  So, the leaders adopted the pagan custom into the celebration of Christmas so that they could have some leverage when encouraging others to forgo Winter Solstice.  Tons of Christian parents would have a fit if schools started teaching their kids this stuff.  They want their religion in schools, but don't want to give equal time to the many other religions in the world.

You can't put religion in schools for the same reason you had so much trouble at TP--tyranny of the majority.  But, of course, the difference is you didn't have to remain at TP, but kids have to go to school.  And the kids in the minority shouldn't have someone else's religion shoved down their throats.

Those are excellent analogy's from all of you.  Very informative, very educated, and very 'real'.  It would be nice if all debates here could go this smooth.  I made a post.........others didn't agree with me.....and yet, I wasn't made to feel like I was attacked nor did I allow myself to feel I was being attacked.  I was, instead, given the factual reasons for the way things are which helps put things into a new perspective for me.

Thank you to all of you for your great posts on the subject!

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Originally posted by: shinyblackpit
"The public schools her are also very liberal. When I was in school, my mom and I would go get me some cool school supplies, like snoopy pencils and a mickey mouse pencil box, my own little sharpener, etc. We would put my name on all my stuff in black magic marker, and those were mine. Now, the kids at some schools in my area are asked to bring in a certain amount of plain yellow pencils, so many boxes of kleenex, etc., and it is all put into a community box in the front of the room. That's just one example of how they are teaching that you shouldn't have something that others might not have. You should feel bad if you have a snoopy pencil and your classmate only has a plain yellow pencil, or if you have a sharpener and someone else doesn't. No such thing as personal property rights. I won't send my children there. My car's more than 10 years old and my clothes are from the thrift store, but my kids are in private school. -- Edited by shinyblackpit at 00:01, 2005-04-12"

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Hi Shiny:

The latest is teachers are not allowed to use red ink to correct papers.  It brings up feelings of anxiety and perhaps can contribute to a lack of self worth and on and on....

If you want to see the article let me know. I will post the link.

Now, teachers are strongly encouraged to use purple, black or blue.  Red brings up too much anxiety.

Perhaps but aren't there more important issues to be discussed?  I mean children are not being obedient, are not learning how to read and are failing to graduate from highschool... I have my doubts if red ink is the problem.

LOL!